IOR to IMS [Archive] - Boat Design Forums

quicksail

06-28-2005, 08:00 AM

IMS really started in the early 90's. Early IMS boats like the FARR 44 Gaucho, Nelson/Marek 46 Collaboration, N/M 40 Sensation, Tripp 50 Falcon and the FARR 40 High Five all came out at this time. These boats where powerful and well mannered boats that had huge speed increased due to fair hulls and wide powerful transoms. IOR at that time was seeing stranger and less sea worthy designs as the rule was pushed to its limit, with hull "bumps", internal ballast and very unstable hull forms. Last IOR Admiral's Cup was 91or 92? i believe.

No one likes getting passed and the new IMS developed boats where much quicker and easier to sail. As IMS has developed we have seen it take the same road as IOR with constant changes to the rule, which has develop slab sided boats with light keels and internal ballast. These hull forms rated so well under IMS that the older designs could not compete.

The problem with these types of rules is that there is always someone trying to push the limits of the rules, sometimes for better and sometimes for worst. As the limits are pushed we start to seeing all boats being designed start looking the same to capitalize on the rating benefits. There comes a point where the rating benefits outweigh the seaworthiness, sailability, and overall performance of the boat. At that point, in my mind, the rating rule is doomed.

Solution, race one-design as that is the true mark of a sailors performance. Or build something that is just fast and screw the rating rules all together.

Cheers

yokebutt

06-28-2005, 09:58 AM

Bob,

The way I see it, IOR was one of many attempts by the geeks involved in sailing to rate diverse boats fairly in order to level the playing field. It failed miserably, mostly on account of the rapid rate of obsolecence it produced. IMS was a more elaborate form of the same basic receipe, trying to level diverse boats to where they could race with an even chance of winning. Of course, the entire notion behind it is, (and always was) flawed. Just for kicks, imagine racing a motor-home against an F-1 car, ridiculous isn't it? even if you had a sizable head-start, would it be the same ratio for every track?

Yes, I do recognize that I'm stretching my analogy pretty thin here, (think rubber-band) but I think the basic premise still holds. (Please do see my missive in the materials section regarding the fallacy of beliveing ones own BS)

My favorite rule is the Sonder boat rule, WL length, WL beam, and draft added up cannot exceed 10 meters, utterly arbitrary, but yet, it works.

Well, that's my view of the situation, so naturally it has to be correct, and thus, don't bother me with your own (by definition) ill-informed opinions.

Yoke(silly)butt.

skinny boy

07-12-2005, 11:55 PM

To directly answer the questions, IOR was starting to wane are IMS grew part of the driver for IMS was the odds contortions of IOR. The brief period of late '80s and early 90's they co-existed. The big years were 90-92 if I recall.

mighetto

07-18-2005, 10:54 AM

The way I see it, IOR was one of many attempts by the geeks involved in sailing to rate diverse boats fairly in order to level the playing field. It failed miserably, mostly on account of the rapid rate of obsolecence it produced.

These foolish and many attempts can be traced to controversy over centerboards and in particular one vessel.

In 1954 the Olin Stephens designed yacht Finisterre was launched, to late for the Bermuda race that year. She was a 38 foot centerboarder and there is no more accomplished racing yacht. She ranks as one of the most significant yachts in the history of the sport. And we do not discuss her enough.

Carleton Mitchell, the owner of Finisterre, is the author of the book Islands to Windward. He had developed a sailing style that was not in concert with the era of the deep-keeled, long-ended windward-leeward oriented ocean racers. An era that had just started and would gain momentum with the revitalizatoin of the Americas Cup and the 12 meter vessels. Mitchell had previously owned a 58-foot centerboarder, the Rodes-designed Caribbee. Michell wanted to prove something by racing.

With Finisterre, he humiliated hundreds of deep fixed keel race boat owners by holding the honor mooring spot off the Royal Bermuda Yacht Club from 1956 to 1962, a spot envisioned for a much much larger and deep draft vessel.

Finisterre was widely copied but these copies did not produce wins like those obtained by Finisterre. This immitation lead to rule changes tending to reduce the success of her type. That success should spawn rules limiting progress in design is a tradgedy. But training has something to do with the sad story. Finisterre's crew had perfected the use of the centerboard as an ocean racing tool. They knew that the faster the boat went the less centerboard was required and they knew that they could eliminate rudder drag by using the centerboard to steer, as today's sailors steer with the sheets. They also knew that retracting the board helped the vessel surf. But this knowledge was not passed on as it should have been. Instead, the progress in design so well represented by the Mitchell/Stephens collaberation and so well proven on the race course was just ignored and designers wishing to appear as authorities started developing and promoting various box rules. I see this really as the cause of the end of the custom build shops and not the fiberglass era. Few want race boats designed by someone who didn't design the box rule as well.

Shife

07-18-2005, 11:33 AM

Frank, your post is 100% misinformation. Go back to your cage.

mighetto

07-18-2005, 12:23 PM

Frank, your post is 100% misinformation. Go back to your cage.

Shife. Nonesense. This is not my spin.

Prior to the build of Finisterre, Mitchell put his ideas in articles which were criticized, putting him in the awkward position of potential publicized failure, not unlike myself :rolleyes: Finisterre was built at the height of custom yacht design. His notion of a vessel that would be like having your cake and eating it to, that would be small enough for single handling, comfortable enough for luxurious cruising, able to cross oceans and fast enough to win races was not popular among the "all boats are compromises mindset." The fact that the vessel would be a centerboarder undoubtedly angered many who had worked for years to discredit this foil type.

Here are some conclusions that I am coming to regarding modern ocean sail boat design. Vessels under 30 foot should be designed with planing/surfing in mind. Speed is the number one item necessary for safety. That was not the case prior to say 1960 when there were not excellent reporting systems. Prior to the 1960s you could expect that at least one time in a vessel's life it would be storm sailed. Today no fast sailboat, competently crewed and of shallow enough draft to take advantage of all-weather-moorings need ever ride out a storm at sea. Vessels between 30 foot and 37 foot should be twin keeled.

"No other nation has put so much faith in bilge (or twin) keels as the British. Other countries have flirted with them, but we became so enamored with the concept that they were the first choice for anything less than about 36 feet."

Practical Boat Owner
Buying A Second Hand Boat, April 2005, pg 54

Designers of Vessels over 36 feet should learn from Finisterre. At that size all you need compromise on is transportability and that is only the case if you design a beamy vessel. Finisterre is said to be beamy. But that is hardly the case when you look at other vessels. The notions that vessels like Finisterre are sailed differently than IOR and IMS oriented vessels explains why copies, crewed by the experienced, were not successful. They had not been trained to take advantage of the technology. So does the notion that racing rules discriminated against such designs but I find that less convincing because there are venues that do not discriminate, such as PHRF.

Shife

07-18-2005, 01:41 PM

mighetto

07-18-2005, 03:39 PM

Yes Frank, it IS your spin. You take information that you barely understand out of context and then mold it to fit your warped idea of what a sailboat design should look like. All because you are desperately searching for a design that somewhat resembles the pile of crap you own.

I think it has more to do with growing up on the left coast. When I started sailing the books we used were Royce Sailing Illustrated and those from the Red Cross. Not those from US Sailing or Mystic Seaport. This was 1973. Owing to that training when I decided to graduate from power boating and go back to sailing, the POC that I selected fit with my understanding of how things should have been working in the year 2000. Plus I was always impressed with the Costa Mesa built vessels.

The only thing your boat and the Olin Stephens design you mention above have in common is a centerboard. Your notion of a racing sailboat never needing to ride out a storm is completely false. While you run for cover, the rest of us continue racing.

You misunderstand. My favorite sailor is Larry Ellison. Larry knows the designer game. The game goes as follows: Get the owner to contribute as much as he can to customizing the boat because then if something goes wrong the owner is at fault and not the designer. Larry was a newbe to the sport when he did his Hobart race. The vessel he sailed did not weather the storm - it flew ahead of it and it was speed, not size, that saved his life. His designer was ultimately responsible because Larry refused to be conned into making decisions regarding sailboat design that would absolve him from that responsibilty. He had a great designer. Larry to this day still thinks size is what matters.

That is part of racing. Running for a anchorage at the first sign of bad weather is called cruising.

And yet you are required to carry anchoring tackle. Sorry anchoring is as much a part of racing as it is a part of cruising, at least here in the pacific northwest. My arch rival, Tripp Gal, thinks as you do. Her vessel must be brideled to be anchored. So what do you do when the wind dies, and the tide changes during Swiftsure? Sail backwards for several hours. Yep that is what the fools in the boats built for fools do and it is why Hunters beat them.

The boat you mention above has absolutely nothing to do with IOR or IMS. You are looking for connections where there are none.

Perhaps. I see a time period, the 1960s, I see recognition that boats as small as 19 foot are viewed as perfectly capable of circumnavigating the globe at that time. Then I get back into sailing in the late 1990s and nothing under 40 (really 60) foot is considered safe. What happened? IOR and IMS.

"They knew that the faster the boat went the less centerboard was required and they knew that they could eliminate rudder drag by using the centerboard to steer, as today's sailors steer with the sheets."

You can not use the centerboard as a replacement for a rudder.

Pat Royce is a fellow who somehow was diplomatic enough to get his material put into print (the most recent printing is 2000) but he knows as I do that sailors have always been opinionated cussers. You most certainly can steer by centerboard, just as you can steer by using your Genoa Sheets. Retracting and extending foils - especially ones that pivot and twist is steering. But I think I know where you are going. If a centerboard can by reclassified as a trim tab or a rudder; it suddenly is not illegal under many racing rules.

Your lack of knowledge on the subject is embarrassing. Try sailing upwind with your centerboard retracted. Not going to happen.

This depends on the side chines of the craft and on its speed. On vessels with hard side chines the sides dig in providing lateral resistance and upwind sailing is still possible. We haven't seen examples of this in ocean racing until just recently. See http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=53355&postcount=19

Ecover's canting keel fell off. Golding was still able to sail upwind to finish the race. Well perhaps a poor example because canting keels do not provide much lateral resistance, if any. But on the other hand, sailing surf boards do not have much fin either. Nore do multis. The faster the boat goes the less fin is needed. If that fin can not be retracted, it becomes drag and the faster the boat goes the more drag. Common Sense is represented in Finisterre. The fact that she won 3 Burmuda races and it proved nothing is just troubling. 50 years of advancement in monohull sailboat design has been lost. Olin is also distressed by this. He lives you know. I am confident he sees IMS as counter productive.

Do you have any clue what XTE is and how a centerboard effects it? When will you finally admit that you have no clue what you're talking about?

I am talking about http://www.sailtexas.com/handicaparticlepart2.html

The Cruising Yacht Club of Australia announced that the Overall Winner of the 2004 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race will be the boat that wins the IRC (International Rule Club) handicap category overall on corrected time. The Tattersalls Cup has for the past ten years been presented to the boat that wins the IMS (International Measurement System) handicap category. Prior to that, the trophy was awarded to the boat that won the IOR (International Offshore Rule) handicap category.

Design rules are being abandoned. And I am talking about the theory that first was presented a few months back by Seahorse international. That theory is that if a designer wants to be viewed as an authority, he/she must have his or her own box rule. By coming up with a box rule they become the authority on sailboat design. They also get a franchise with monopoly power which eventually closes down the smaller design shops and builders.

I am clueless on XTE unless you are chatting about Autopilots. If so then you probably do know that it is perfectly possible to design a boat that will self steer and that autopilots are necessary owing to box design rules.

BTW...Thanks for ruining what could have been an informative thread.

I would say that sailing in the US was ruined long before I started posting. 100,000 sailors abandon this sport per year according to US Sailing's consultants. The country hasn't put a competitive team together for the AC for seven years and even in the Olympics we are a joke. You should start thinking perhaps we have been snookered into being the dumping ground for the rest of the world. The dumping ground for vessels that are not only not competitive but also foolish.

Shife

07-18-2005, 04:40 PM

"I am clueless on XTE unless you are chatting about Autopilots. If so then you probably do know that it is perfectly possible to design a boat that will self steer and that autopilots are necessary owing to box design rules."

You are clueless Frank. Clueless about everything you've just written. You spout this crap as if it were truth and then show a complete lack of understanding about everything related to racing a sailboat. Just try to sail your Mac upwind with the board retracted. Your XTE (cross track error) will go off the chart. You do understand how to use a gps don't you? This is because without that board down to create lift, you will at best move mostly sideways through the water. Yes you can steer a boat with it's sails. Trying to steer a boat by retracting the board is just stupid. Yes, some centerboard boats partially retract the board when running downwind to reduce drag. You have taken this common practice and mutated it to work in your demented mind. You are wrong, you are a troll, and I'm done feeding you.

mighetto

07-18-2005, 05:16 PM

I am clueless on XTE unless you are chatting about Autopilots. If so then you probably do know that it is perfectly possible to design a boat that will self steer and that autopilots are necessary owing to box design rules."

You are clueless Frank. Clueless about everything you've just written. You spout this crap as if it were truth and then show a complete lack of understanding about everything related to racing a sailboat.

All sailors have a clue - for example on the end of their jib :) We are both truth seakers. The URL I provided http://www.sailtexas.com/handicaparticlepart2.html was not written by me. However, its author did contact me recently to thank me for posts here and on Sailing Anarchy and an email I sent him. I love his tag line

Since we never reckon that we understand a thing till we can give an account of its "how and why", it is clear that we must look into the "how and why" of things."

Aristotle.

Just try to sail your Mac upwind with the board retracted. Your XTE (cross track error) will go off the chart.

Why would you assume that I had not tried this. Of course I have and as long as the optimum heel is maintained (10 to 17 degrees) Murrelet will sail upwind without the benefit of an extended centerboard. Practical Boat Owner has an article about this. It was about a cruise from Salcombe across the English Channel to the canals of France then through the Bay of Biscay to more canals and then the Mediterranean and on to La Manga del Mar Menor (close to Cartagena) by a Mac26x without the benefit of a centerboard.

You do understand how to use a gps don't you? This is because without that board down to create lift, you will at best move mostly sideways through the water. Yes you can steer a boat with it's sails. Trying to steer a boat by retracting the board is just stupid.

Well I do know about velocity made good. VMG. You have to recognize that you do not just sail wind; there is also current. Does it make sence to sail wind with sails fixed in only one possition? Of course it does not. It makes just as little sense to fix your keel foil. Of course for a beginner the fewer controls the better; perhaps a centerboard is an advanced skill :p

Yes, some centerboard boats partially retract the board when running downwind to reduce drag. You have taken this common practice and mutated it to work in your demented mind.

"In light to moderate conditions (when power to carry sail is not an issue), a center boarder or lee boarder has the advantage of more efficient and lower-drag lateral plane. All else being similar, it will point and foot better than a deep keel-ballasted boat"

Phil Bolger and Susanne Altenburger
Wooden Boats
November/December 2000 issue

"When racing, if the course is all to windward and the wind is strong and the boats are big enough to make live ballast a minor issue, an efficient deep-ballasted boat will win. The shoal-draft boat will hold her own reaching, and will outrun the deep boat off the wind by hauling up the board(s) to reduce wetted surface" according to Bolger and Altenburger.

Phil Bolger and Susanne Altenburger
Wooden Boats
November/December 2000 issue

You are wrong, you are a troll, and I'm done feeding you.

If it were only so simple. As the above quotes show we can both be correct given certain assumpions regarding wind conditions. I think now I get to remind the IMS IOR and IRC folks that we do not actually race but rather play a racing game. Two sailboats going in the same direction unconstrained by such rules is a race. In the 05-08 Racing Rules of Sailing that are distributed by US Sailing, Janet Baxter - president of US Sailing, states. US Sailing and the International Sailing Federation (ISAF) are commited to providing simple rules that describe the game you want.

Box design rules are no longer wanted. This is a good thing for amature and professional designers who did not have a monopoly owing to connections with IMS or IOR. It is bad for wolf :) units whos VPP and Polars have perverted design to the point where multi-hulls actually look good. :D

yokebutt

07-18-2005, 08:21 PM

usa2

07-18-2005, 10:02 PM

frank-
the CCA rule encouraged boats like Finisterre so whatever you say is essentially bull.

mighetto

07-18-2005, 11:03 PM

Frank,

How many races have you sailed with your boat? How many did you finish? And, finally, how did you place and correct out, and out of how many boats? (For the sake of argument, let's just take PHRF or whatever rating rule at face-value, they may not be perfect, but they're good enough to give a rough indication of the skill of a sailor)

Yoke.

I grew up in your area racing 26 footers. These had sails but we rowed them. The whale boats became a very big deal and in fact are still competing in your area of the world. We have something similar in the pacific northwest called the butterfly fleet and they were salmon fisher vessels. I have yet to find one in operation but expect to this summer. To handle the ocean swells of the columbia large sprit sails were set becase speed is what got them over the bar safely if they could surf the waves as the grady white and boston whalers do today. It may distress you to find out how few designers, amature or otherwise race and how poorly those who race design. Or that olin stephens did not believe naval archetecture worthy of devoting school time to. But you miss the point. We do not race in PHRF or IRC. We play a race game.

Every time two boats sail in the same direction it is a race. I sailed to intermediate level on Omega 18s while attending Santa Barbara. UCSB.

I bring up the whale boats by way of indicating knowledge of race competition. We had our equivalent of amatures and profesionals as well as ringers. We put the weakest member on the bow, the fellow we cared least about, just like they do on the TP52s. And eventually things got so competitive that we tried drawing lots for each others vessels. The idea was that the older heaver 26 footers would be selected last only it didn't work out that way. Teams that trained on the heavy vessels prefered the heavy race boats and selected them in spite of newer light vessels. My point is that the crew and the boat became a unit. It didn't work to swap crews. I have a background and perspective that fellows learn from, just as I am sure you do. We all grew up going to yacht clubs where "gentile only" signs were still displayed and were actively recruited for the military. It was not so different a time.

Captain Harburger, do you want to hoist the colors? You have permision to use the avitar. SA is part of the race game. The SSSS board room and boat design.net should not be. I have no problem with PHRF outside of the arbitrary way lifting foils are handled. IRC will help to change that. I have only come to view regional ratings as a problem recently. I could still be persuaded otherwise. But just like ballast is ballast, I suspect the wind is the wind and the sea is the sea all over.

yokebutt

07-18-2005, 11:22 PM

Frank,

That's a very interesting perspective you have there, but, what about the answers to my three simple questions?

Yoke.

yokebutt

07-18-2005, 11:45 PM

sorenfdk

07-19-2005, 07:25 AM

IIt may distress you to find out how few designers, amature or otherwise race and how poorly those who race design.
Oh - please distress us! How few?

Jim Hauser

07-19-2005, 10:03 AM

mighetto

07-19-2005, 10:27 AM

Alright then, Frank,

Perhaps that was a bit too tall of an order. Instead, just tell me about the last regatta or race you did with your boat. (you know, the type with a race-committee, start/finish lines, marks and all that) I'll go first to give you an example: Last weekend I sailed a Wabbit in the high sierra regatta at Huntington lake, of an 11 boat one-design fleet, we finished fourth in a series of three races. See how easy that is? Now it's your turn to tell.

Yoke.

Yoke, I know there is a movement to keep "non-racers" off important commitees and boards at US Sailing, South Sound Sailing Society and PHRF organizations. The idea is that only those who race competitively can possibly understand the complex issues of setting up a race course, organizing a commitee boat, getting fleet insurance etc etc. To this I say hogwash - or to be nautical I say prop wash. :) All it takes are two crews who want to have some fun and charter a couple of sailboats in the BVIs or this time of year, in the San Juans, where the Macgregor.com fleet is now. (Good to see Mac26x Avocet going down I5 last night.) But to answer your question, I was out racing last wednesday. Hope to do so again tomorrow and am preparing for "my series", (The Secretary Series which starts on July 27.)

Frank L. Mighetto
Member SSSS

Now let me explain why there is a movement, a back lash really because it really is over. It started with the discovory by US Sailing's management consultants that the sport has been loosing 100,000 sailors per year. The why of this goes beyond the sad fact that the US teams do poorly against international competition. It speaks to the blemishes on the sport like Tripp Gal who go out of their way to make sailing not fun and send their thugs out to shut down forums like http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/ and http://www.ssssclub.com/bar.htm and follow fellows like me from forum to forum to be "handled". Part of the handling is tricking racers into thinking windward leeward courses and vessels known as "big boats" are what sailing is all about. The S#%t hit the fan when US Sailing divested itself of ORC and proclaimed that it would be supporting the cruiser-racer vessels instead of the elite race boats. The movement, of to which you apparently belong, had expected to extract funds from the cruising folks to support the big elite boats. Tripp Gal has no ligitimate business as a PHRF rater; she and her big-boat kind are symptoms of the larger problem - that being that the race game has become not fun owing to the way it is played off the race course with design rules, course design and thuggary.

remember now - I am a permanant write in candidate for any office at US Sailing or South Sound Sailing Society. Your Seattle Progressive Sailor :)

BTW, I do crew on a 42 foot Catalina owned by my sister out of Point Richmond. Some of my closest friends are big boat owners :)

mighetto

07-19-2005, 11:03 AM

Migghie has alphabet soup for a race history.

I think the last place he wasn't DFL, or DNF was early this year. It's all on his club website in the race results. He did get an 8th out of 10 in one of the races however.

His greatest claim is finishing last in the race where the Tripp 47 went home early. Of course he doesn't tell you that he finished 3 hours and 15 minutes later than the boat rated slower than him. Frankie also forgot to mention that his fleet had to sail half the distance of the regular fleet. I also think he forgot to mention that when he finished the Tripp was within 5 miles of the real finish line. They sailed nearly twice the distance he did in the same amount of time. He also conveniently forgot to mention that the Tripp didn't even have to come down to win the series. The lucky crew of the Tripp got to go in and get warm, dry, and eat Tide's burgers while we sat out there waiting for the storm to come in and bring wind in the off chance we may be able to move up in the standings.

Jim, I really didn't want to make this about me. Lets make it instead about Tripp Gal. :) Lets be certain to mention that Tripp Gal orchestrated a boycott against South Sound Sailing Society, recommending that members dissatisfied with my vocal ridicule of her and her kind on Sailing Anarchy not pay their membership fees to SSSS . This actually back fired. We did have 30 or so boycott but then twice that number returned or joined for the first time. SSSS now represents close to 600 sailors.

Then Tripp Gal tried boycotting the Toliva Shoal race. This was because I had let it slip that a former MacGregor Yacht owner was in charge of the race, and her kind goes after all who might support an enemy. The race was damaged by her, not in attendance, though my wife would not let me race Murrelet for fear of being bumped by this angry eater of young sailors. Instead we watched the mark at toliva shoal and were distressed to see that Tripp Gal had convinced enough racers to just stop racing at the midpoint mark. Other vessels including our coward of a vice commodor's sailed the entire course back to the beer. Tripp Gals boat is dry.

And of course there are the four attempts to have me excluded from the society. Even so, she shook my hand a week or so ago. I intend to turn her into a friend one day. I like to think she was duped into purchasing an old race boat and is basically a good person. Nonetheless she should not be a PHRF rater.

Murrelet did finish first of her kind among 50 power sailers a month ago. We are getting the hang of things. Last wednesday I sailed the lee to the first mark. This is ok for a fast boat but is usually the poorest of strategies and I knew that. In addition we have a current you can take advantage of to windward. Even then she did well. She is fast enough for racing PHRF.

I did enjoy the press in 48 north on the race where the Tripp 47 went home early. Tripp's thugs had posted on the Internet prior to the race that "woe be it to any passed by Murrelet". Of the 12 in cruising class only 5 got listed on the official race sheet. Those embarassed by my little boat simply did not report back to the commitee boat. When that happens they do not get listed. This is an example of taking a penulty for an advantage. It shouldn't be that way. Next time there may be a protest. 48 north posted the unofficial race results that acurately portrayed what happened that day. I love chatting about this. Thanks. Murrelet got press for four or five months in 48 north. We still have visitors recognizing us for that. It must just piss off those who would make racing a political struggle of wills and pretend it is controlled by big boat owners at PHRF-NW.

Shife

07-19-2005, 11:36 AM

"Jim, I really didn't want to make this about me. Lets make it instead about Tripp Gal."

Frank, you are nothing more than a pathetic troll. You ignore the facts given and twist the rest into a pathetic drivel that has nothing to do with the questions presented before you. The only thing that you have proven in that post is that you are a lonely, bitter, ill-experienced man, who will never outright win any race. You don't have the first clue as to how to set up a start line. The day someone allows you on a PHRF committee is a sad day for sailors in your area.

"Last wednesday I sailed the lee to the first mark."

So what happened when you got to the windward mark? Did you give up because you still haven't figured out how to make a boat go to windward? Your fellow racers have made it very apparent that you are not a threat on the course, rather an annoyance at the club.
Respond to the questions in this and other posts directly or don't respond at all.

mighetto

07-19-2005, 11:38 AM

Oh - please distress us! How few?

Nice, bite. Hook line sinker :) Let me put my answer in the context of the Transpac.

The Dorade, a 52 foot yawl designed by Olin Stephens, and the Santa Cruise 70 are two of only 4 vessels to be first to finish, first in class and first overall in the Transpac, a race to Hawaii that has been run regularly since 1906. Analisis of these two boats has value in showing the future of yacht design and it speaks to what is necessary to be a sail boat designer.

The Dorade win in 1936 made Olin and Rod Stephens unusual designs legendary world wide. Olin in February of 1988 confided in an oral history at Mystic Seaport that Ken Davidson was his mentor in applying science to sailboat design. Davidson was a physics or math professor in 1931 when young Olin first met him. Davidson had taken training in the Navy as well as graduating from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The Stephens had built Gimcrack S & S in hopes of getting a one-design class started. Davidson built a model for this vessel and tank tested it, the result being an education for young Olin and also the Gimcrack Coefficients which were applied to the driving and heeling forces of sails and rigs. Olin states about Davidson,

"I would say the only bad advice he ever gave me was this: I said, 'I don't worry much about the naval architecture, I'm not going to school as a naval architect, but I wish I knew more about calculus.' He said. 'Oh, you can always get someone to do that for you." (laughter) Since I've gotten involved with the computer, I wish I could do more of it myself." Olin Stephens also states "I often kick myself, because with the knowledge that Ken had and a lot of which he passed along to me, I think we could have advanced a lot faster then we had."

In 1977, Bill Lee decided to take advantage of the potential of fiberglass by making an ultra light displacement boat. His Santa Cruise 70 Merlin not only won the Transpac but held the record for this race for 20 years. This is one of the longest ocean racing records. It took Pyewacket, a water ballasted racer, to better Merlin. These names are important even today for the 2005 Transpac . I do not think Bill Lee had any formal training in design - but then this I will be researching.

One of the longest ocean race records still unbroken is held by a MacGregor 65 in the sister race to the Transpac - The Newport Ensinada race. Her designer and builder had no formal training in boat design or in naval archetecture and wasn't a racer until after founding MacGregor Yachts.

I could talk about the founder of Hobbie Cats but then I haven't done the research there either and multi-hulls don't count right :) What I am attempting to demonstrate is that what makes a good sailboat designer is the ability to take a few carefully spun myths about the sport and see that they are Bravo Sierra. If out of 10 myths the designer can see two or three that are BS, he has an excellent chance of coming up with a viable profitable design.

water addict

07-19-2005, 12:00 PM

I suspect racing saiboat rating rules tend to fade in and out as an older rule falls from favor and a new rule moves up to take its place. So that, for a while, the two rules exhist simultaniously.

My questions are:

1.) Did this happen with the IOR and The IMS?
2.) Did the two overlap for awhile, or was there an interim rule that came after the IOR and before the IMS?
3.) If the IOR was directly replaced by the IMS, during what years did this happen?

Just curious.

Bob

OK back to the original post-
IMS was originally MHS (measurement handicap system) then changed it's name to IMS (international measurement system). The origination of MHS occured in 1976? with the Irving Pratt project at MIT to develop a VPP for a handicap rule, instead of a design rule which IOR was.
There was a period of co-existence with IOR in the mid 80s to around 1990. In 1985 ORC adopted IMS to co-exist with IOR as a rating rule. IOR started dwindling for the same reason IMS eventually did. The highest bidder almost always won, i.e. the newest boat with the latest exploitation of the rule that some very rich owner could afford would go pound the competition until a newer boat came along. When IOR died, the big dollar guys had to move the money game to IMS because there was nothing else. It was a harder rule to exploit, but sure enough as computer models and computing power increased, the designers started poking holes in the rule for the right price. The first IMS example of this was Collaboration, a purpose built IMS race boat. Then Farr got into it with Gaucho, Full Cry, etc. and it was deja vous all over again.
IOR was pretty much gone by 1990. The good of it is that IMS produced much better handling boats than IOR, and much faster for a given length. Collaboration I think was 44 or 45 feet, and would blow the doors off the hottest IOR 50 footer of 1990.
The bad is as always- nothing goes to weather like money, money always won.

mighetto

07-19-2005, 12:22 PM

Shife]

"Jim, I really didn't want to make this about me. Lets make it instead about Tripp Gal."

Frank, you are nothing more than a pathetic troll. You ignore the facts given and twist the rest into a pathetic drivel that has nothing to do with the questions presented before you.

Lighten up. :) In a court of law or court of public opinion when those I will now call pimples can not argue the logic they may try character assasination. For those not capable of seeing facts and critical thinking, character is the only thing left upon which to base opinion. I present facts like Finisterre showing that race wins prove nothing in sail boat design and you attach my character. We have many problems in this country, must this technique so common in governing the nation be applied also to our sport?

The only thing that you have proven in that post is that you are a lonely, bitter, ill-experienced man,

But not Paranoid? If you had used the word paranoid I would have said - typical script from a dirty trick book.

who will never outright win any race.

You just are not getting it. We play a race game. It has rules, courses, and procedures that when they do not appear fair turn literally hundreds of thousands away from the sport. I win real races (two boats headed in the same direction) all the time. I expect to win PHRF races from time to time because, contrary to what you may think, in PHRF and in IRC every boat when competently crewed can win. Now let me get on owner-driver. I already mentioned that crew are prohibited from purchasing a race boat as a group. This kind of thing is what made the sport interesting 60 years ago. The other bad thing about owner-driver is that it kills the fun of serries racing. At SSSS it is the boat that races. Owners who can not make a couple of races in the series owing to schedules or what ever, are encouraged to let their crews race with out them for a series win. It is fun that way.

You don't have the first clue as to how to set up a start line.

Let me rephrase: You are likely to set up a start line (and finish line) that disadvantages the windward-leeward machines. Or you are likely to select a first mark that is not directly to windward thereby favoring the planing vessels. Or you are likely to make the finish line wide thereby favoring the planing vessels. Or you are likely to broadcast on VHF the start so that it is a fair start and fewer vessels crowd the commitee boat so they can see the flags and hear the signals. Hell you probably will also broadcast the GPS coordinants of the marks and select an Olympic style triangle course instead of a windward-leeward oriented one. All of that is true. Fortunately, I am only required to serve as commitee boat once per season. Perhaps not at all now - eh? I wish now to say that a great thing about SSSS is that all race vessels must serve as committee boat. At CYC Seattle, one fellow on one powerboat is about to handle all races for the next two years. I see little good in that. Selecting which race to run based on who is doing commitee work is part of the game.

The day someone allows you on a PHRF committee is a sad day for sailors in your area.

Well you can be certain that the marks will be there when you get there. Having a power sailer means a quick check is possible. It isn't like what happens every other year at SSSS with protests because a mark is missing. Hey you want to see a mess - see what happens when someone snags a mark and moves it. Listing the marks by GPS just makes so much sense. At least then racers know what phantom to round when the mark is missing or obviously moved. Simple things like this are what you can look forward to from my commitee boat.

"Last wednesday I sailed the lee to the first mark."

So what happened when you got to the windward mark? Did you give up because you still haven't figured out how to make a boat go to windward? Your fellow racers have made it very apparent that you are not a threat on the course, rather an annoyance at the club..

I wasn't able to start the race on time. This owing to Lake Fair mostly but I hadn't planned on racing and did so owing to a post on this forum.

When passing Circus, I notified the commitee boat that I was not going to complete the race. The game I was playing was proving that my POS can point, which she can. I caught the fleet by the first mark and after rounding (which I do poorly without crew) fired up the wallis and cooked dinner. Then I waited for the sun set. However, I will admit without qualms that I can not figure out what you all do with the poles. I fiddled with that thing and produced only drag - best I can tell. Thanks to Dwayne I did round on the starboard. Folks are a lot more friendly when they are actually racing. Don't you think?

Respond to the questions in this and other posts directly or don't respond at all

You are a demanding muse :)

mighetto

07-19-2005, 12:59 PM

frank-
the CCA rule encouraged boats like Finisterre so whatever you say is essentially bull.

Can you elaborate? One has to recognize that a world war had just wound down and that the Americas Cub Charter was in the process of being modified to allow the 12 meter vessels instead of the J-boats. Part of the problem (from a design standpoint) is that no one outside of a sailor follows the Burmuda race or the Transpac or Block Island or Swiftsure or any number of wothy other races but almost all sport fans follow the America's Cup. Hence notions of design that lubbers have come from those vessels. What I am saying is that Finisterre should have set a standard in design that carried for 50 years based on her race record and that design rules explain why that standard was ignored. It is just like the battle between Microsoft and Apple where Gates points out to Jobs after Jobs claims he has the best operating system that you do not have to have the best product if you are marketing to Americans.

TheFarSide

07-19-2005, 01:24 PM

It speaks to the blemishes on the sport like Tripp Gal who go out of their way to make sailing not fun and send their thugs out to shut down forums like http://macgregorsailors.com/phpBB/ and http://www.ssssclub.com/bar.htm and follow fellows like me from forum to forum to be "handled".

Let's set the record straight.

Tripp Gal is a highly respected and welcomed contributor to the MacGregor Sailors Forum (http://www.macgregorsailors.com) (now down with database problems, not because of TG). Her helpful writings there are sailor to sailor, without even a hint of the arrogance of some "real" sailors, with "real" sailboats.

Mighetto, on the other hand, is viewed by most there as an unwelcome troll and a nut case, pretty much the same as he is here and on SA.

Jim Hauser

07-19-2005, 02:00 PM

Lighten up. In a court of law or court of public opinion when those I will now call pimples can not argue the logic they may try character assasination. For those not capable of seeing facts and critical thinking, character is the only thing left upon which to base opinion. I present facts like Finisterre showing that race wins prove nothing in sail boat design and you attach my character. We have many problems in this country, must this technique so common in governing the nation be applied also to our sport?

This coming from a man who spews libelous and slanderous materials on a daily basis. Go figure.

Shife

07-19-2005, 02:01 PM

" I already mentioned that crew are prohibited from purchasing a race boat as a group."

Completely false. Yet another fine showing of your lack of understanding of sailing and sailboat racing. I race against several PHRF boats that are group owned. I will be crewing on one this weekend in a 200+ mile distance race. As usual, you are wrong.

Your preference for triangle "parade of boats" courses is obvious. It's the only type of course your boat has half a chance in.

"Let's set the record straight.

Tripp Gal is a highly respected and welcomed contributor to the MacGregor Sailors Forum (now down with database problems, not because of TG). Her helpful writings there are sailor to sailor, without even a hint of the arrogance of some "real" sailors, with "real" sailboats.

Mighetto, on the other hand, is viewed by most there as an unwelcome troll and a nut case, pretty much the same as he is here and on SA."

Your local competitors have called you on your lies time and again. Try to put the keyboard down for a while and gain some actual experience and knowledge before you come back.

skinny boy

07-19-2005, 02:38 PM

But to answer your question, I was out racing last wednesday. Hope to do so again tomorrow and am preparing for "my series", (The Secretary Series which starts on July 27.)

We have seen at least two people show the slate of officers for the SSSS and your name doesn't appear any where on it. You are mentally unbalanced. You were removed from the office of secretary. The new officers have taken office and you are not one of them. It is not "your series".

You are a borderline stalker. You refuse to accept reality and your obsession with Tripp Gal is to the point where if I were Tripp Gal I would seek a restraining order. You seem to be one step short of being a predator. You need professional help.

sorenfdk

07-19-2005, 02:55 PM

Nice, bite. Hook line sinker :) Let me put my answer in the context of the Transpac.

The Dorade, a 52 foot yawl designed by Olin Stephens, and the Santa Cruise 70 are two of only 4 vessels to be first to finish, first in class and first overall in the Transpac, a race to Hawaii that has been run regularly since 1906. Analisis of these two boats has value in showing the future of yacht design and it speaks to what is necessary to be a sail boat designer.

The Dorade win in 1936 made Olin and Rod Stephens unusual designs legendary world wide. Olin in February of 1988 confided in an oral history at Mystic Seaport that Ken Davidson was his mentor in applying science to sailboat design. Davidson was a physics or math professor in 1931 when young Olin first met him. Davidson had taken training in the Navy as well as graduating from Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The Stephens had built Gimcrack S & S in hopes of getting a one-design class started. Davidson built a model for this vessel and tank tested it, the result being an education for young Olin and also the Gimcrack Coefficients which were applied to the driving and heeling forces of sails and rigs. Olin states about Davidson,

"I would say the only bad advice he ever gave me was this: I said, 'I don't worry much about the naval architecture, I'm not going to school as a naval architect, but I wish I knew more about calculus.' He said. 'Oh, you can always get someone to do that for you." (laughter) Since I've gotten involved with the computer, I wish I could do more of it myself." Olin Stephens also states "I often kick myself, because with the knowledge that Ken had and a lot of which he passed along to me, I think we could have advanced a lot faster then we had."

In 1977, Bill Lee decided to take advantage of the potential of fiberglass by making an ultra light displacement boat. His Santa Cruise 70 Merlin not only won the Transpac but held the record for this race for 20 years. This is one of the longest ocean racing records. It took Pyewacket, a water ballasted racer, to better Merlin. These names are important even today for the 2005 Transpac . I do not think Bill Lee had any formal training in design - but then this I will be researching.

One of the longest ocean race records still unbroken is held by a MacGregor 65 in the sister race to the Transpac - The Newport Ensinada race. Her designer and builder had no formal training in boat design or in naval archetecture and wasn't a racer until after founding MacGregor Yachts.

I could talk about the founder of Hobbie Cats but then I haven't done the research there either and multi-hulls don't count right :) What I am attempting to demonstrate is that what makes a good sailboat designer is the ability to take a few carefully spun myths about the sport and see that they are Bravo Sierra. If out of 10 myths the designer can see two or three that are BS, he has an excellent chance of coming up with a viable profitable design.
As usual, your "answer" to a direct question is nothing but a load of irrelevant BS.
I ask you again: How few designers race?
And please elaborate on that other statement: Those who race design poorly. And this time, your answer should consist of numbers and names.

101

07-19-2005, 03:12 PM

Shife

07-19-2005, 03:22 PM

We're doing well with a 82 Dehler DB1 under PHRF. We'll see how it does next year in the bigger races under IRC. I have a feeling you'll see a resurgence of old IOR boats under IRC. Cheap, lots of them around, and they should rate pretty fair under IRC.

yokebutt

07-19-2005, 03:40 PM

What idiot would pay this doofus enough money to buy even a MacGregor? Frank, what do you do for a living anyway? I'm dying to know.

Yoke.

mighetto

07-19-2005, 07:32 PM

What idiot would pay this doofus enough money to buy even a MacGregor? Frank, what do you do for a living anyway? I'm dying to know.

Yoke.HWSNBN = He Who Should Not Be Named? For a living, I ferret out folks such as Tripp Gal. I am a management consultant who makes the big boys at the big companies cry. But I do not do so out of meaness. Another name for my kind is expert witness. Clients have included most US medical schools (Medicaid Fraud) and Microsoft as well as DSHS units in West Virginia, Michigan, California and Washington State. Tripp Gal has embarassed the sport of sailing by her "morbid fascination" with my ride. But again she is just the pimple of the disease, a symptom of the much greater problem which prevents this sport from growing in the US and in fact whithers it.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2005/images/swifless.jpg_sml.jpg
The photo posted here is sole property of Borrowed Light Images, www.borrowedlightimages.com (http://www.borrowedlightimages.com). 15834 NE 67th Place Redmond, WA 98052 (425) 882-7317

See the above as an Internet and sailing bully. This is reality. :p Now continue with your normal broadcast. I will not be posting for a while. Just brings out the thugs a bit to much. Søren Flening, others who what answers. Try mighetto@eskimo.com or http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/murrelet.htm Oh, I wanted to point out that they are getting it wrong on air america regarding the term "mushroom". The term refers to novice sailors that are kept in the dark and fed S#*t. Father hear my libral confession...

Shife

07-19-2005, 07:57 PM

"For a living, I ferret out folks such as Tripp Gal. I am a management consultant who makes the big boys at the big companies cry. But I do not do so out of meaness. Another name for my kind is expert witness. Clients have included most US medical schools (Medicaid Fraud) and Microsoft as well as DSHS units in West Virginia, Michigan, California and Washington State. Tripp Gal has embarassed the sport of sailing by her "morbid fascination" with my ride. But again she is just the pimple of the disease, a symptom of the much greater problem which prevents this sport from growing in the US and in fact whithers it."

What a load of complete and utter BULLSHIT. You have completely gone off the deep end now haven't you? Go back to your TP52 cage Frank. Stay out of the rest of the threads. You know nothing of the subject this thread was intended to discuss and you are ruining it for those who would like to intelligently disscuss it.

sorenfdk

07-19-2005, 08:16 PM

I will not be posting for a while.
And we all go "ahhhhhh..."

BTW: Sorry for high-jacking this thread. I didn't mean to, but I guess I got carried away by the troll...

yokebutt

07-19-2005, 08:19 PM

Expert witness? just the thought is enough to give me nightmares, so I think I'll quit now.

Yoke.

Paul B

07-19-2005, 08:59 PM

OK back to the original post-
IMS was originally MHS (measurement handicap system) then changed it's name to IMS (international measurement system). The origination of MHS occured in 1976? with the Irving Pratt project at MIT to develop a VPP for a handicap rule, instead of a design rule which IOR was..

I believe you are correct. The first MHS meetings were in late '75 I think. Olin Stephens was involved, but none of the group of IOR designers (Peterson, Holland, Frers, Farr) who had dethroned him were invited.

There was a period of co-existence with IOR in the mid 80s to around 1990. In 1985 ORC adopted IMS to co-exist with IOR as a rating rule.

As MHS teethed IOR remained the dominat rule. Admirals Cup (UK) remained IOR through the 1993 edition. Clipper/Kenwood Cup (Hawaii) ran both IOR and IMS classes in 1990 as the cross over. StFYC Big Boat Series (USA) also crossed over in 1990, with the first purpose-built IMS boats showing up in 1991. Sardinia Cup (Italy) ran the final IOR in 1990 and began IMS in 1994.

IOR started dwindling for the same reason IMS eventually did. The highest bidder almost always won, i.e. the newest boat with the latest exploitation of the rule that some very rich owner could afford would go pound the competition until a newer boat came along.

As it always will be under any rule in racing. IOR, IMS, Formula One Motorsports, etc.

It was a harder rule to exploit, but sure enough as computer models and computing power increased, the designers started poking holes in the rule for the right price. The first IMS example of this was Collaboration, a purpose built IMS race boat. Then Farr got into it with Gaucho, Full Cry, etc. and it was deja vous all over again.

Actually, it wasn't really more difficult after the first few serious attempts were made and data was collected.

IOR was pretty much gone by 1990. The good of it is that IMS produced much better handling boats than IOR, and much faster for a given length. Collaboration I think was 44 or 45 feet, and would blow the doors off the hottest IOR 50 footer of 1990.
The bad is as always- nothing goes to weather like money, money always won.

The early IMS boats were very nice. High Five is still a pretty quick 39 footer. A bit more rig with MH Kites and she wouldn't be far off the pace of the best no-rule 40 footers today.

Actually, the IMS boats were not all that much quicker than the last of the IOR boats for a given dynamic waterline. A Mumm 36 (off the custom Farr 36) was about the same pace as a last generation Farr One Tonner (40 feet). Whack off the bow overhang and tweak the stern on the One Tonner and you would have similar length boats going not too different pace.

Later IMS boats, especially in the Med, became as much rating freaks as the earlier IOR pintails.

Money is what killed IOR, and then IMS, (also MORC) and will surely kill the next Grand Prix rule. The cost of "high tech" sails is really killing off the local racing scene, since a suit of competitive sails now costs more than the value of many of the boats a working man can afford.

CT 249

07-20-2005, 12:41 AM

"So, back to the IOR, I'm under the impression that even with all their faults for downwind stability, IOR boats are rating O.K. in some of the newer rules."

A few years ago I interviewed some of the top UK designers and other guys about IRC. The consensus was that the "smooth" IOR boats, those with fewer bumps and wider sterns (ie mid '70s Farrs, probably many French boats) were competitive on IRC. The more heavily-bumped IOR boats (maybe Judel/Vrolijks, later boats ie 50s) would struggle. Half tonners of the '80-85 period seem to do well in Europe under IRC; Brittany Drizzle etc. I get the impression the Db1 would be similar. There have been fewer successes to the big IOR boats, like the 1983 vintage Farr 40 one tonners.

Last time I checked up, the Brits had tried taking the "bumps" off some of their IOR boats but the Hull Factor went down (IIRC) and therefore the speed increase wasn't as big as the rating increase.

Out here in Australia a few years ago, the national IRC titles went to a 1909 (IIRC) Fife "metre boat" type, sailed by a bunch of J/24 and Sharpie champs. A Farr 1104 (1975 design 36' IOR racer/cruiser), the 1974 heavyweight S&S 47 Love and War, a 1960's mastheader, a 1976 Adams 10 (like a lighter, lower Tartan 10), and various other IOR boats have done well in big events.

I know I shouldn't do this, but here goes.

Frank, about "The notions that vessels like Finisterre are sailed differently than IOR and IMS oriented vessels explains why copies, crewed by the experienced,were not succesful".

Absolute rubbish. The modified Finnisterre type "Sunstone" was British offshore racing "Yacht of the Year" about four times in the '80s and '90s - on IOR, AND on IMS, AND on IRC. She won the Commodore's Cup (IMS), Channel Race (IOR), Sydney-Hobart Div 3 (IMS) and her class in the Fastnet several times (various rules). She was measured at the expense of the ORC to see why she was so succesful under IMS and her success under various rules caused a fair bit of ruckus in the UK. There was NOTHING in the rules that prevented Finnisterre types from being succesful. Mind you, they are not fast, they just rate low.

"Larry was a newbe to the sport when he did his Hobart race. The vessel he sailed did not weather the storm - it flew ahead of it and it was speed, not size, that saved his life."

Bullshit, there were hundreds of sailors in smaller, slower boats who didn't die. If it was only Sayonara's speed that saved Larry's life, the sailors on smaller boats wouldn't have survived. The race was won by a 35' IMS boat....a small, non-planing type.

"Not many designers can race".

Let's see. Bruce Farr - New Zealand national Moth champ as a teenager. Interdominion 12' skiff champ. 3rd (IIRC), 18' skiff "worlds". South Pacific 1/2 ton champ.

Russell Bowler. World Cherub champ. Interdominion 12' skiff champ. 3rd (IIRC) world 18' skiff champs.

Iain Murray (Murray/Burns/Dovell). America's Cup skipper. 7 time "world" 18' skiff champ. Two-time Etchells world champ.

Grant Simmer (Alinghi design director). Winner, America's Cup as navigator. Lightweight Sharpie national champ when young.

Laurie Davidson. Almost won the "world" 18' skiff titles as skipper.

Ron Holland. World champion owner/skipper.

Pete Marvin, M&M multihulls. World A Class cat champ.

Faroux. Several time World International Moth champ.

CT 249

07-20-2005, 12:47 AM

"Actually, the IMS boats were not all that much quicker than the last of the IOR boats for a given dynamic waterline. A Mumm 36 (off the custom Farr 36) was about the same pace as a last generation Farr One Tonner (40 feet). Whack off the bow overhang and tweak the stern on the One Tonner and you would have similar length boats going not too different pace."

That reminds me of a conversation I had with a sailmaker years ago, on all Elliott 10.5 - beamy, light, non-IOR race machine with twin trench cockpits and a masthead kite. "Look at that main" he said proudly. "With that big roach and full battens, that sail is as big as a one-tonner main". So we went around the top mark, and popped the masthead kite. "Great sail" he said; "as big as a one tonner's kite". So I asked how big the boat was, and he said "as long on the water and as beamy as a one tonner". And I saw how many guys we had on board, and it was as many as a one tonner. And the boat went - about as fast as a one tonner.

So we had no rule to race under, and we had gained - exactly what? We had cut the cheap, pretty bits off each end, and ended up with a boat about the same size as an IOR 40 in every respect but LOA, and about the same speed. But for some reason, everyone thought a 35 footer that was in some ways a sawn-off 40 was special.

I think I started losing interest in non-rule boats about then. It's like a Laser - sure you can modify it to make it go faster, but what's the point if it takes it outside the class?

Paul B

07-20-2005, 02:05 AM

"So, back to the IOR, I'm under the impression that even with all their faults for downwind stability, IOR boats are rating O.K. in some of the newer rules."

A few years ago I interviewed some of the top UK designers and other guys about IRC. The consensus was that the "smooth" IOR boats, those with fewer bumps and wider sterns (ie mid '70s Farrs, probably many French boats) were competitive on IRC. The more heavily-bumped IOR boats (maybe Judel/Vrolijks, later boats ie 50s) would struggle. Half tonners of the '80-85 period seem to do well in Europe under IRC; Brittany Drizzle etc. I get the impression the Db1 would be similar. There have been fewer successes to the big IOR boats, like the 1983 vintage Farr 40 one tonners..

In fact, the competitive IOR boats after about 1983 were not so unstable downhill. People always seem to equate IOR with 1975 Peterson and Holland Pintails. The later boats, especially the 30.5 raters, surfed and even planed along. I have some photos of one of the last IOR boats in the USA, a Reichel 44, and there is virtually no distortion in the aft sections.

No boats struggle under under IRC, do they? Isn't it the "most fair" system of handicapping? (sarcasm here)

"Let's see. Bruce Farr - New Zealand national Moth champ as a teenager. Interdominion 12' skiff champ. 3rd (IIRC), 18' skiff "worlds". South Pacific 1/2 ton champ.

Russell Bowler. World Cherub champ. Interdominion 12' skiff champ. 3rd (IIRC) world 18' skiff champs.

Iain Murray (Murray/Burns/Dovell). America's Cup skipper. 7 time "world" 18' skiff champ. Two-time Etchells world champ.

Grant Simmer (Alinghi design director). Winner, America's Cup as navigator. Lightweight Sharpie national champ when young.

Laurie Davidson. Almost won the "world" 18' skiff titles as skipper.

Ron Holland. World champion owner/skipper.

Pete Marvin, M&M multihulls. World A Class cat champ.

Faroux. Several time World International Moth champ.

It is my experience that most good designers are top rated sailors as well. That's how they get their early boats to the top of the heap. These people get into racing boat design as a living because they enjoy it and are good at it. Most grew up racing all sorts of boats with great success. If you don't have a good feel for what feels fast when you are sailing then your next iteration won't have as much chance of being an improvement.

Alan Andrews and Bruce Nelson are two of the very best sailors I've ever sailed with. Alan won the Congressional Cup match racing as tactician before he became a "name" designer and was a collegiate All American. Nelson was also an All America sailor.

Philippe Briand helmed to a One Ton Cup victory, and I believe two Quarter Ton Cups. I'm sure the other designers from that era, Andrieu, Humphreys, etc could also get a boat around the course.

Olin Stephens and his brother Rod were outstanding sailors in their day.

I've sailed with Doug Peterson when he was ON, and he was very good. As a youth he sailed a Tahiti race with a crew that included Ron Holland and Tom Wylie, and sailed his first design to a win at the One Ton NAs.

I believe any development class dinghy designer is also a very good sailor in that class. In the museum in Auckland sits a dinghy that a kid named Bruce Farr designed and built when he was 14 years old, then raced and won the national title with it.

mighetto

07-20-2005, 11:47 AM

CT 249

I know I shouldn't do this, but here goes.

CT 249! have you been banned from Sailing Anarchy :?: I had no idea that the topic of designers was taking place on SA. I suppose that comment by Sail about the Flying Tigers being dribbly hulled like a Mac 26x - Let Fly sent the editor looking for photos of Tasars. Good to see Frank Bethewaite alive and kicking with new mylar sails on the vessel that should be standard Olympic equipment. Tasars are sailed differently. Falling off in the puffs instead of heading up and 4th mode sailing, all of that - is different from training at the US Sailing Acredited Basic Keel boat schools.

I had posted: "The notions that vessels like Finisterre are sailed differently than IOR and IMS oriented vessels explains why copies, crewed by the experienced,were not succesful".

Absolute rubbish. The modified Finnisterre type "Sunstone" was British offshore racing "Yacht of the Year" about four times in the '80s and '90s - on IOR, AND on IMS, AND on IRC. She won the Commodore's Cup (IMS), Channel Race (IOR), Sydney-Hobart Div 3 (IMS) and her class in the Fastnet several times (various rules). She was measured at the expense of the ORC to see why she was so succesful under IMS and her success under various rules caused a fair bit of ruckus in the UK. There was NOTHING in the rules that prevented Finnisterre types from being succesful. Mind you, they are not fast, they just rate low.

Behold - the power of the wind we call not Mariah but Progressive Internet Talk. I had no idea. But then CT 249, you have little idea of the closed minded society that those of us who choose to live in the United states put up with daily. The notion of retracting a centerboard during a race just is not tollerated. Sure, you can take a punative penulty rating and do it, so technically it is not prohibited but very few bother. I can add to the knowledge base.

Finnisterre type vessels are likely just as fast on reaches and down wind runs as those of a fixed keel type at least according to the bad boy of designers Boldger who is featured on the .com version of this .net url. It would only be on close hauled and in heavy weather where centerboarders would be bettered by heavy fixed keeled vessels. I could argue that sailing upwind in an ocean race isn't necessary. Finisteer selected courses where she could benefit from riding the edge of a high and need not head into the wind. The distance traveled was further but the speed of the reach more than make up for it. However, with water ballast you get the same features as a heavy fixed keeled vessel just by flooding the tanks.

"Larry was a newbe to the sport when he did his Hobart race. The vessel he sailed did not weather the storm - it flew ahead of it and it was speed, not size, that saved his life."

Bullshit, there were hundreds of sailors in smaller, slower boats who didn't die. If it was only Sayonara's speed that saved Larry's life, the sailors on smaller boats wouldn't have survived. The race was won by a 35' IMS boat....a small, non-planing type.

Ellison is quoted in Proving Ground that he believed the size of the vessel is what made her safe. You and I disagree perhaps. But perhaps we are but two sides of the same coin and mostly agree. Sayonara suffered some delamination on the centerline during the race. The seriousness of this defect has to be tempered with the notion that 66 sailors went into the water during that race and Sayonara was meant to be both a lake and an ocean sailer, not unlike a TP52. Her build may have been compromised somewhat to make her a fast buoy racer. Is she back in the water?

"Not many designers can race".

Let me restate. Those that can sail do; those that cant sail teach; those that can not teach design :) Please note the smiley. But do see some kernal of truth - we be truth seakers here.

Let's see. Bruce Farr - New Zealand national Moth champ as a teenager. Interdominion 12' skiff champ. 3rd (IIRC), 18' skiff "worlds". South Pacific 1/2 ton champ.
Russell Bowler. World Cherub champ. Interdominion 12' skiff champ. 3rd (IIRC) world 18' skiff champs. Iain Murray (Murray/Burns/Dovell). America's Cup skipper. 7 time "world" 18' skiff champ. Two-time Etchells world champ. Grant Simmer (Alinghi design director). Winner, America's Cup as navigator. Lightweight Sharpie national champ when young. Laurie Davidson. Almost won the "world" 18' skiff titles as skipper. Ron Holland. World champion owner/skipper. Pete Marvin, M&M multihulls. World A Class cat champ. Faroux. Several time World International Moth champ.

Lets not see the Johnstons and the J-Boats or the Melges :) :)

Lets not forget Pierre Rolland and the Pogo. What is with that Pogo 40? Water ballast makes the world go round. Anyway a rich area of research has now been opened up. Just from knowlege of Olin Stephines and Roger MacGegor, I do still think that IOR and IMS is what turned novice sailors from the open sea, where prior to that sailing across an ocean in a 19 footer in season was considered natural. It also made it easier for the less qualified to sell themselves as designers.

Frank Mighetto
SSSS Murrelet
Mac26x out of Olympia Washington
Sail 79020

usa2

07-20-2005, 01:00 PM

Eliison is an idiot in many cases, so what he says is not to be regarded as words of an expert. Neither is anything said on this website unless someone can prove that they have the credentials. The smaller boats in the race were generally safer than the maxi boats, because their length would ensure that they were only dealing with one wave at a time. an 80+ foot maxi has to go through 2 or 3 waves at a time, seriously stressing the hull structure. Sayonara is not back in the water, nor will she ever be, because ellison was scared of ocean racing and has now concentrated on expensive competitive daysailing (America's Cup).
Sayonara didnt have to weather the worse part of the storm, but she was forced to keep going because she had left Syndey heads sailing at an average speed of 26 knots so when the storm went off she couldnt turn back without running through the worse part. Based on what is known of the damage to Sayonara, it is conceivable that she would not have survived the worse part of thestorm based on her structural integrity.

Why are you critizing the TP 52's and not say a modern IRC racer such as Aera? Aera was designed to the IRC rule, she is very seaworthy, and a fast boat. The TP 52's were not initially designed to IRC, but rather just for the TransPac. They happen to rate well under IRC and their overall good performance has made them an attractive boat to people joining to the class.

sharpii2

07-20-2005, 11:47 PM

Money is what killed IOR, and then IMS, (also MORC) and will surely kill the next Grand Prix rule. The cost of "high tech" sails is really killing off the local racing scene, since a suit of competitive sails now costs more than the value of many of the boats a working man can afford.

Dear Paul:

Thanks for the imfo. Perhaps these Hi Tech sails should be penalized under any new rating rule. Ideally their actual performance improvement over conventional sails should be exaggerated a tad. Perhaps by as much as 5%. That would create the slightest disadvantage for using them. That way, those who simply wish to go faster may be willing to pay the price knowing full well that it is no longer a plutofix for victory.

It has been said that money can buy just about anything but contentment.
But I imagine (not having much of it myself) that, even on that, it makes a damn good down payment.

Bob

Paul B

07-21-2005, 12:22 AM

Dear Paul:

Thanks for the imfo. Perhaps these Hi Tech sails should be penalized under any new rating rule...

Bob

Sadly, measures like this have been attempted and it simply doesn't work. Alternatives come forward that cost as much or more for less performance.

For example, the J24 class did not allow Mylar sails for a long time. So everyone started using a special dacron material with a very high resin content. It made for nice, stiff sails. The material broke down very quickly and people were replacing sails more often to keep 'em crispy.

Then people would buy high tech sails anyway for handicap racing. More and more cost.

Similarly, IMS originally had stipulations about carbon fiber in the build laminates. So more uni had to be used, and lots of kevlar (which is harder to work than carbon). Ultimately the cost of the boats were not measureably less than boats that used carbon reinforcement.

sharpii2

07-21-2005, 01:28 AM

You can not use the centerboard as a replacement for a rudder. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is embarrassing. Try sailing upwind with your centerboard retracted. Not going to happen. Do you have any clue what XTE is and how a centerboard effects it? When will you finally admit that you have no clue what you're talking about?

Dear Shife:

The small weekender type centerboarder I used to own was very sensitive to how far the pivoting center board was lowered. I never tried it, but I imagine with the jib (on its fractional rig) lowered, and playing with the main sheet and the centerboard crank, it could be done. I know of several tandem centerboarders where that was definately possible. In fact, that was the main reason stated for going to that type. This was, of course, not for harbor maneuvering but mainly long term course setting.

What I do know for certain is that my little weekender could sail up wind with the board completely retracted. I learned this by accident when I sailed into a cove of tree stumps. The only way out was up wind, so I tried to paddle my way out. The wind was strong enough to make that impossible, so I decided to 'motor sail' my way out by using the paddle and the mainsail. I could not keep the boat on course long enough to make paddling useful. So I grabbed the tiller, as the pivoting rudder still had its blade in the water, (the aspect ratio, however, sucked) and, lo and behold, I started making progress toward the mouth of the cove. After about half an hour, I had freed myself.

I was skeptical of this little discovery, so, on a windy day, I took my boat out on the lake and tried it. With the centerboard all the way up (and it retracted all the way into its case) and the rudder blade pivoted all the way up too, I tried a few tacks. The boat made good about 25 to 30deg. to windward. Consistantly. That, of course, was a far cry from the 40 to 45 deg. to wind ward it could make with the board and rudder properly lowered, but it was nice to know, mone the less (for working off a beach, perhaps).

My boat did not have chines, a skeg, or a cutwater.

I know that Frank can be abrasive and ignorant at times (perhaps most of the time), but I do see a kernal of truth to what he is saying. Maybe the best sail boat 'for the masses' is not neccessarily the best sailing sail boat.

My weekender, with its swept back shrouds, no back stays, and sagging jib (I often didn't even bother setting the damned thing), sure wasn't. But she was the boat I could afford and she did do her job.
(she even sailed through a fleet of somewhat longer keel boats on a very light wind day with her high shouldered drifter set. And garnered a few one finger solutes in the process.)

I have never raced. But I have had to get about the lakes I have sailed without an engine. And at one time tacked up a channel only two boat lengths wide. People came out of their cabins to watch. I don't know if a Mac26 could do that. But, if sailed by an owner who really knew her, I wouldn't be surprised.

It seems that Frank inspires a lot of conciet as well as ire. My nick name for him is 'father of a thousand posts'. If he is so truly ignorant and false in his claims, why does he upset everybody so much. And why use so much vitriol against him. That only comes accross as pure defensiveness, making it seem like he may be right even as we (who are much more versed in design principles than him) know he is clearly wrong. Truly, better imformed people can be better behaved.

Bob

skinny boy

07-21-2005, 10:59 AM

Bob,
Sometime you should try steeering with a centerboard with no sails. You are not really ever steering with the centerboard you are steering with the sails. You can change the balance of the boat with the centerboard and as such it will affect the trim and alter course, however that is because of the relation to the sails not because it is a centerboard. Take the sails down and up or down the centerboard will not steer the boat. The rudder will still steer the boat as will other things. So no centerboard steering is not possible, it is a tool that can be used but will be easily overcome by the force of the sails. So there is so little truth in the claim made by Mighetto that most people feel it is wrong to try and claim it because someone who doesn't know better may find themselves confused.

As for going to weather without a board, yes it can be done, not efficiently, and as such the claim that you don't need it is again at best marginal. In order to be exact you need to define the scope of the sailing involved. In this case the claim was that you could sail upwind with a centerboard just as well or better than with a keel. There is no truth in that statement. Shife may have overgeneralized in his response and your correction to him is legitimate.

Concerning the vitriol with which people seem to address Mighetto, look at the crimes to determine if the reactions are deserved.

Let me list a few of the major ones that personally offend me:

1. Intellectual Property Rights abuses, he has taken copyright and registered trademark property with permission of the owners and used it for his own purposes here on this board as well as on others including his own website. The site moderator for this board had to remove a picture he stole from another site and replace it with a link and the proper photo credit. Maybe you do not have any intellectual property that you use to help you make a living but others do the theft of that property by anyone who has been specifically told of their actions and continued to do it is the cause for a very strong negative reaction.

2. Personal libelous attacks, he has attacked people personally and with the stated intent of hurting their ability to gain employment in their chosen field. He has not provided any substantiation and in fact when presented with facts to contrary of his claims he ignores them and continues with the attacks. This results in a rather negative response also.

3. He has called his own club members cowards among other things. Yesterday he called a member of his own club which has been awarded a lifetime membership to the club because of his tireless efforts to promote sailing and racing not worthy of that. The person he attacked, I have been told by a friend who lives in the area is one of about 4 people in that area that are the primary reasons that any racing happens at all. Without the efforts of people like the people he is attacking there would be no sailing of any substance in the entire south sound area. This is cause for a very negative response. All we have to do for ignorance to win out is let it go. The attacks are unjust and not fair when they are not in a place where the others can defend themselves. In our legal system here there is a way to ask a question where one never wins, "when did you stop beating your wife?" No matter how you answer this question you are already looked at as a wife beater. It sets the preconception for everyone that you are bad. His attacks against these people he is trying to do exatly the same thing. If they respond they lose.

4. He is doing this from a government network which means he is using a resource paid for by others from taxes to post claims that are patently and knowing false. This is not ethical and I don't think it is particularly legal, although it may be different in the states.

Does he deserve the negative and harsh reaction, in my opinion yes he does, when someone tries to tell him to not be so vitriolic himself, he threatens them. as he did me with crap about Internet Terrorist Act and calls us a terrorist. The last time he did this I asked for the language that supported his claim and threat, while providing him the specific definition of libel and its application to his posting. He has not responded to that but has continued to attack people.

Finally, people tried to reason with him, after enough attempts eventually for some people they just need to vent and he becomes the target because of his continued attacks and lies. So then you are right people just start kicking the dog because it allows them to release the anger for not only his crap but for anything else. The ire in many cases is therapeutic and as long as they have to put up with him they might as well get something out it of.

Mark 42

07-31-2005, 12:48 PM

What idiot would pay this doofus enough money to buy even a MacGregor?
Frank, what do you do for a living anyway? I'm dying to know.

http://www.eskimo.com/~mighetto/

mighetto

07-31-2005, 03:14 PM

The web site you point to was developed for the HP palmtop. I was an HP palmtop developer for many years using the artificial inteligence program PROLOG at that time under DOS 5.1. This was when HP had offices in Oregon supporting that work. There are still several universities using that program but I have not worked actively on the product for some time. From time to time I am asked to join seminars and classes that use it and there was interest in enhancing it for the last presidential election. The tie to sailing is an interesting one. The US Navy paid two consultants to develop the decision tree. I have invested in several privately owned businesses and have started and sold several. Today we are selling an interest in one. If only there was a sail boat better than the Mac26x I already own:)

Hey - I did well at the Tourchlight 8 k. Not last this year :) Off to Ballard for Seafood.

mighetto

07-31-2005, 04:05 PM

Let me list a few of the major ones that personally offend me:

1. Intellectual Property Rights abuses, he has taken copyright and registered trademark property with permission of the owners and used it for his own purposes here on this board as well as on others including his own website. The site moderator for this board had to remove a picture he stole from another site and replace it with a link and the proper photo credit. Maybe you do not have any intellectual property that you use to help you make a living but others do the theft of that property by anyone who has been specifically told of their actions and continued to do it is the cause for a very strong negative reaction.

Oh admit it. The truth personally offends you. I usually post with links. Are you certain I didn't correct this on my own? No board operator has ever contacted me - which is what is required when there is an issue. But I continue to do as best I can, given this wild west we call the Internet. I now take aim

2. Personal libelous attacks, he has attacked people personally and with the stated intent of hurting their ability to gain employment in their chosen field. He has not provided any substantiation and in fact when presented with facts to contrary of his claims he ignores them and continues with the attacks. This results in a rather negative response also.

I did attach a hacker. Haxor - if you are he then you deserve no employment in the field. I do the profession a service by hirting employment of hackers. The facts I present, get removed by hackers. Look at The Future of Yacht design on Sailing Anarchy. If they do not get removed then the entire boards get shut down permanently - like Sailnet. I am ready to fire.

3. He has called his own club members cowards among other things. Yesterday he called a member of his own club which has been awarded a lifetime membership to the club because of his tireless efforts to promote sailing and racing not worthy of that. The person he attacked, I have been told by a friend who lives in the area is one of about 4 people in that area that are the primary reasons that any racing happens at all. Without the efforts of people like the people he is attacking there would be no sailing of any substance in the entire south sound area. This is cause for a very negative response. All we have to do for ignorance to win out is let it go. The attacks are unjust and not fair when they are not in a place where the others can defend themselves. In our legal system here there is a way to ask a question where one never wins, "when did you stop beating your wife?" No matter how you answer this question you are already looked at as a wife beater. It sets the preconception for everyone that you are bad. His attacks against these people he is trying to do exatly the same thing. If they respond they lose.

Dan Decker is a coward. I told him to his face before alerting the world. Nonetheless he will be a fine commodore of SSSS. We do not all grow up to be the men we would want to be. Not all of us can stand up to Sudie Parker AKA Tripp Gal. It is Tripp Gal that would shut down sailing in South Puget Sound. In fact she shut down half a Toliva Shoal race. You know something, Dan Decker is not a coward. He sailed the second half of that race - this in defiance of Tripp Gal - I forgot that - good job dan. Oh My God - Dan is the Man!

Regarding Steve W. Again, we do not all grow up to be the men we would want to be. Not all of us can stand up to Sudie Parker. Life time membership is an honor. It does not bind the lifer to our Bylaws. Steve represents PHRF first which means giving SSSS the shaft if that is what is needed to keep IRC out. The shaft like not bringing up our Bullitine Board. What influential club doesn't have its own board. There are none. SSSS has become to influential. I say yea lets use that influence to change PHRF and to support IRC.

4. He is doing this from a government network which means he is using a resource paid for by others from taxes to post claims that are patently and knowing false. This is not ethical and I don't think it is particularly legal, although it may be different in the states.

Why do you asume I do not have permission. Of course I do - it is in writing. FYI, the state of washington objects only to my use of the telephone, which I no longer use. It costs the State of Washington nothing for me to use its network and it cost me nothing to use cell phone. No one but you sees a problem and this is because you do not want to see the truth.

Does he deserve the negative and harsh reaction, in my opinion yes he does, when someone tries to tell him to not be so vitriolic himself, he threatens them. as he did me with crap about Internet Terrorist Act and calls us a terrorist. The last time he did this I asked for the language that supported his claim and threat, while providing him the specific definition of libel and its application to his posting. He has not responded to that but has continued to attack people.

No response outside of a written one is binding. I continue to ask you to write me. If you are uncomfortable writing me because you do not want me to know who you are, you may contact the Seattle Better Business Bureau and put in a complaint against Mighetto & Associates. We have never had a complaint and I have been posting on the internet for over 30 years. I am responsible for some of the first distance learning programs that used the Internet. The field does change rapidly. But nothing I have posted raises any alarms that I know of.

Finally, people tried to reason with him, after enough attempts eventually for some people they just need to vent and he becomes the target because of his continued attacks and lies. So then you are right people just start kicking the dog because it allows them to release the anger for not only his crap but for anything else. The ire in many cases is therapeutic and as long as they have to put up with him they might as well get something out it of.

I am not the enemy. South Sound Sailing Society is not PHRF. PHRF needs to back down and will. You watch. There is more pie to slice up when the pie is bigger.

WildCherry

07-31-2005, 05:51 PM

Why do we continue to let this guy Hijack threads? Frank, Please stop posting. Just read what others have to say. We dont want to hear your plagerism of someone else's story. We dont want to hear your story. We dont care.....

Back to the thread topic please.....

mighetto

07-31-2005, 08:19 PM

Hey, give it a rest. See http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=21317. I am bigger than life. No one can stop chatting about me.

They come from all over the country just to get a photo shot of mighty Murrelet. IOR to IMC is one step to the topic of IRC. I have written extensively on this topic and hope to contribute more. The posts by skinny boy are out of line. It is best to deal with them before moving back on topic.

My how I am missed on Sailing Anarchy. But seriously, I haven't posted there in months. We have new truth seakers raising the flag of true Sailing Anarchy now.

Trust me on this or not. But your point is well taken. Club matters such as my last post should take place on the club bulletine board - only wait. There isn't one and guess what it is the charge of a PHRF director who the Commodore has designated as club editor to have that thing running oh - two months ago. Believe me there are many that would take over his web resonsibilities including Skinny Boy. Tripp Gal doesn't want it and she is a ball crusher. :) :) The hills are alive with singing :cool: For me

I am a man of constant sorrow. Only troubles do I find. I met a gal that gave me troubles. I have but one testical now.

Truth seakers, review The August Seahorse. In Seattle, it is SeaFair. There will be a brief intermission from the trials of mighetto. Hope to be racing in "my series" The Secretary's Series on Wednesday. May I suggest a Hawain theam like the duck dodge. Its all about having fun lads.

I claim post 52 as my prize.